Brett Haugh:

Anytime you spend time pursuing a deal where it, it doesn't meet your criteria, your guardrails, you need to cast it off and hyperfocus on. What does so many leaders today feel like? They have the answer, and a lot of times they don't. They pull the trigger before they really have the target identified.

Brett Haugh:

[00:00:21] Anytime that there is change, there's opportunity and you just have to assess the opportunity.

Matt Pennebaker:

[00:00:36] What happens when hypergrowth finally stalls? Brett Haw tells the EBS story a decade of building the boat while sailing the sudden flat line. Then how alignment propelled their sales close rate from 20% all the way up to 75. We'll hear how tying bonuses to core values rejecting misfit RFPs and re-engaging client service rules, lifted retention to 95% and made competitors confess.

Matt Pennebaker:

[00:00:59] We've never [00:01:00] seen anyone disrupt the market like you. Let's get started.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:01:06] Thanks for joining us today. Looking forward to our conversation. I want to go back to our Employee Benefit Solutions days, and can you tell me a little bit about the history of the company that led you to the inflection point where we entered the picture?

Brett Haugh:

[00:01:24] Yeah. Well, ward, thank you for inviting me to your podcast and back at the, the beginning of, of EBS, I joined it and, uh, Jim, of course, was the founder and and leader of it.

Brett Haugh:

[00:01:37] We were 10, 15 employees. About $3 million in revenue and my joining the firm, you know, quickly infused about that amount of capital into it immediately. And he and I, you know, became, uh, business partners on that. We knew that. You know, we were at or near an inflection [00:02:00] point of what do we need to do from here that allows us internally to be able to drive this and presents a differentiating theology to the marketplace on how we were unique and different.

Brett Haugh:

[00:02:14] The process that we went through with Pennebaker. Allowed us to, you know, reflect on our vision of what we thought could be accomplished. You supplemented that, providing critique on are you sure, you know, have you tested it? What are the competitors doing? Is it really unique in a buyer's eyes or is it something that's, you know, very common.

Brett Haugh:

[00:02:39] That's what led to that process to kind of give us the chart course and direction for what would ultimately drive the culture of the firm and everything in terms of how we operate the firm to presenting our services and capabilities and differentiators

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:02:55] clearly to the marketplace. How are you explaining what [00:03:00] your business was that made it a commodity explanation before we started?

Brett Haugh:

[00:03:05] Well, you know, we were, we were looking at. Outwardly at the, at the competitive environment and trying to look as sophisticated as we thought they were and mocking some of that, uh, we were coming up, each individual was coming up with their own ideas, and so it was really just an amalgamation of thoughts and points, but without any, you know, solid, clear direction.

Brett Haugh:

[00:03:30] So there was a lack of consistency. It confused both the culture and the organization of EBS as well as the marketplace that we were, you know, striving to appeal to.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:03:42] And tell me about the process of getting a new client. What did it take to find a client? Pitch the client, and then what was involved?

Brett Haugh:

[00:03:51] So the process of, of client acquisition at that time was largely based on the three principal owners and [00:04:00] relationships that we had, and people always enjoy and like working with people that they know, trust and understand, and, and those are easy wins.

Brett Haugh:

[00:04:09] What bothered us was that we weren't testing our ability to compete in a competitive situation and really put the goods and the details on the table to somebody, you know, was looking in a selection of a business partner from an objective perspective. And so we knew that, that we could always. Grow and develop clients based on personal relationships.

Brett Haugh:

[00:04:32] But at the end of the day, you, you quickly run out of people that you know, and you have to start competing in the marketplace on a competitive basis. And how successful were you at that in terms of your close rate? The relationship sell is a 90% close rate. What was not a high percentage close rate were the jump balls, the RFPs that we would get that would also be sent to all of our different competitors, [00:05:00] where we had to articulate what our culture was, what our values are, what our service capabilities and differentiators are, and have it be unique and different relative to those we were competing against.

Brett Haugh:

[00:05:13] And also measurable. And so we, we had to go through that kind of gut wrenching process of really rediscovery and tearing down the walls that we thought were protective and really rebuilding the for, to be able to compete in the market. So your success rate on

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:05:32] the jump balls

Brett Haugh:

[00:05:33] was fairly low? Very low, yeah.

Brett Haugh:

[00:05:35] I wanna say it was probably 20%, 25%, to be honest. And until we went through the process where we did the guardrails and that influenced, you know, our thinking and the way we articulate ourselves to the marketplace, the percent increase was more like 70, 75%, which is really where you want to have it be if you're gonna be a legitimate contender.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:05:59] If you [00:06:00] think in terms of before we went through this process and you think. EBS is the company that blank. What was it that you would say, like you'd call up and say, I'm Brett Hall and I'm with EBS and we do blank. I would say that we're, we're EBS

Brett Haugh:

[00:06:16] and we do fun

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:06:17] and we care. We're good at service. But you'd say, you'd say first to put you in a category that we're in the employee benefits business, right?

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:06:27] Yeah, we're in the, we're

Brett Haugh:

[00:06:28] in the employee benefit business. And we're better and we're more effective. But all of those things are not measured. And what effectiveness means to one buyer, it means something completely different. So it all washes out in a, in a competitive jump ball environment. And we knew that we had to have something that was more demonstrative and effective in the marketplace than, than just those, those terms.

Brett Haugh:

[00:06:56] But I tru, I truly believe that we were more fun.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:06:59] In [00:07:00] terms of the arc of the business, you'd been successful in growing to a point and had you hit a, a plateau where it's kind of like, we're successful, but I want to get to the next level, or what, what'd you think of about that?

Brett Haugh:

[00:07:12] Yeah, it was, it was hypergrowth in the beginning, so much so that we were building the, the boat in the water, and while we had new clients coming, we were also hiring new employees and trying to assimilate them into.

Brett Haugh:

[00:07:28] The culture, the way we think, how we measure things, you know what our behaviors are like, and that went on for probably a decade. And then you have to constantly reinvent yourself. And so you do that by. Testing the guardrails to make sure they're still applicable, which they are looking at the capabilities and the services to make sure that they meet the trends that buyers want in the marketplace.

Brett Haugh:

[00:07:56] And then just straight, innovative, different way of, [00:08:00] of approaching or solving a particular client problem.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:08:03] So you reached that point and you had been on a kind of a growth, had plateau. What drove the urgency to do something different?

Brett Haugh:

[00:08:11] Well, you measure yourself and, you know, you kind of get drunk on a 55% growth rate, and then you, you begin to, to realize that the, the number gets bigger and 55% on top of a larger number is more and more difficult to obtain.

Brett Haugh:

[00:08:28] So you have to. You have to recalibrate the expectations of the organization. On what the revenue growth is or should be relative to the resources that you've got invested in. And at the same time, challenge yourself to come up with new, innovative, different, you know, services to provide to the marketplace.

Brett Haugh:

[00:08:47] So it's really a combination of all of those, but you're constantly retesting, revalidating, verifying that you're on the right track.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:08:56] Did the employee base have the same [00:09:00] urgency to grow that you all did in management?

Brett Haugh:

[00:09:03] I believe so because, you know, in the beginning when I talked about the significance of guardrail, it was, it was as significant on the internal operations of EBS as it was, as it influenced external prospects and clients.

Brett Haugh:

[00:09:18] And what we saw was we, we reconfigured compensation programs. To reflect and on on the behaviors that we felt were sustaining or allowed the company to, to be sustainable. So strive toward excellence, being authentic with each other, but in a professional way, growing and developing. So we tied people's compensation to.

Brett Haugh:

[00:09:45] A portion of their additional compensation or bonus to how they lived up to those values that reflected and supported the guardrail statements. We also developed people not only on the technical aspects of the business, [00:10:00] how calculations needed to be made, what compliance efforts needed to be taken care of.

Brett Haugh:

[00:10:06] Buy win and to who. But we also wanted to see them develop their leadership skills. We wanted people that were the tip of the spear of the client engagements to be truly strategic and to be unburdened by some of the daily aspects of client service. And so when you looked at a team. We had to build the skills of those leaders to be able to pass work down and for them to be able to provide, you know, quality assurance and, and review of the work that was going out to the clients every day.

Brett Haugh:

[00:10:41] The lower end of the client team, those were the, the, the folks that were doing the mechanical. Formulas and calculations and attestations and compliance stuff that needed to be done. And so that really, those values, those guardrails really helped set the [00:11:00] stage for defining what the role was and making sure that the individ, the individuals.

Brett Haugh:

[00:11:05] On those teams in those different roles, understood and knew why it was important for them to perform their job in an excellent way. And that, that permeated through the entire culture and understanding. And then even today, as I run into, uh, some of those younger employees that are now, you know, early, mid thirties, you know, with families.

Brett Haugh:

[00:11:26] They recite to me what those guardrails and what those values are, right? So it was highly effective and it really helped support them in the launch of their careers and their professional development. That's how you know it works

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:11:40] when you were trying to increase the efficiency of your sales process from 20 to the upper seventies.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:11:48] What were some of the keys that you looked at that would improve that?

Brett Haugh:

[00:11:52] Well, first it's, it is being able to clearly articulate and qualify [00:12:00] the prospect of client that to ensure one, that they fit the guardrails. Before that time, we would chase after anything and everything that seemed to express an interest in us.

Brett Haugh:

[00:12:11] And when we went through the guardrail process, part of that is. Here's where you're good, here's where you're not good. And anytime you spend time pursuing a deal where it, it doesn't meet your criteria, your guardrails, you need to cast it off and hyperfocus on what does. So you'll remember, ward, one of our guardrails was we, we wanna work with smart employers.

Brett Haugh:

[00:12:37] Clearly, you know, a smart employer is able to articulate what their challenge is so that we can figure out whether or not we have a solution for that. I know that sounds a bit unusual, but some employers, even to this day don't correctly articulate or not able to articulate what their problem is.

Brett Haugh:

[00:12:55] They're just out looking and kicking tires, and if you are focused on [00:13:00] hypergrowth, the more time you spend with a. Tire kicker, the less time you're spending on solving somebody's problem that really understands what and, and knows what they need.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:13:10] That strategy of kind of looking at the world as clients from heaven and clients from hell.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:13:15] Mm-hmm. Was that difficult to push through the organization because so many young sales people are in or in sales roles kind of figure if they're breathing and might have money, we should chase 'em? Oh yeah. I mean, that's.

Brett Haugh:

[00:13:30] That's always difficult because the young salesperson or producer, business developer, whatever you want to call them, is coming from a position of scarcity and scarcity, meaning that they were, they're wanting to earn money, they're wanting to close deals, they're wanting to validate themselves as a sales professional, when you set up guardrails.

Brett Haugh:

[00:13:55] You do. So I think more from a position of abundance and, and it [00:14:00] allows you to look at the world differently. But you know, it is a challenge with young salespeople to. To think, gosh, you need to redirect and you need to detach from those opportunities, right? I use the word detachment because salespeople get attached to any opportunity and it clouds their judgment, and so they get emotional about winning the opportunity, whether or not they really have a true shot at it.

Brett Haugh:

[00:14:27] So you have to redirect them. And I think that that allowed us to redirect younger salespeople. And I believe over a period of time they understood the value of that. And I think, you know, today, what, 20 years later, it still holds true.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:14:42] One of the things that we developed, if you could talk about this, was there were three things that you would need to look for that would tell you if they would absolutely become a client or not.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:14:56] Do you remember what those three things were?

Brett Haugh:

[00:14:58] Yeah, I mean, I, I think I'll [00:15:00] take a stab, but I, I think smart, right? Being a smart buyer is. A great asset. Valuing the role of people within the company right, was vitally important. I mean, we're we're there to help an employer design benefit HR programs to support the attraction and retention of talent.

Brett Haugh:

[00:15:22] Not every employer thinks about people the same way. Some are commodities. Some are assets, and so that's yet another guardrail to say, well, I only want to talk to the people who think their employees are assets. You know, the third one, I think I remember that the client or the prospect needed to be in a state of change, either real or perceived, and we debated.

Brett Haugh:

[00:15:48] What does change mean? Their business operation is going through a set of, you know, subtle or major or minor changes that sets off kind of a panic within the [00:16:00] organization and those companies that are experiencing that change need advice and technical guidance. So we were, we were the Jungle Guide or the Sherpa to help navigate those companies.

Brett Haugh:

[00:16:14] When we walked into a company that had no change going on, we knew immediately that that was gonna be a short meeting. And I think we gave examples 20 years ago of golly, we walked into X, Y, Z company here in Houston and talked to the executive team and they said, no, we don't really have any changes.

Brett Haugh:

[00:16:35] We're still distributing the product and we're still selling to the same people. And you know, the same thing happens day in and day out. I think Jim and I just looked at each other and we said, we gotta get outta here fast. We've gotta go find somebody that has change going on that needs the expert advice and guidance.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:16:55] Are those the three you were thinking of? Yeah. The three that that we codified was [00:17:00] one. You had a professional who is the HR person, not somebody who had been promoted from receptionist. Right. One was a CEO with a clear vision, right. As you said. The third was going through disruption. Right? And one of my favorite stories was when we were in the middle of the guardrails, and I'm gonna want you to talk about this 'cause I don't wanna put these words in your mouth, but where, uh, when we were trying to define what category you were in, and we were talking about, well, we're, you know, the SWAT team and where the, the Sherpa, et cetera, and either you or Jim, do you remember what you said?

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:17:36] Ask Baylor. We're in the ass bailing business. Yeah. We're in the as bailing business. Yeah.

Brett Haugh:

[00:17:41] Yeah. I don't remember who, who coined that phrase, but you, you had your spider graph up on the whiteboard and it had tentacles and, you know, shoots and ladders coming off of it and all. And you, I, I knew you were struggling to figure.

Brett Haugh:

[00:17:57] What the hell are these guys trying to do here [00:18:00] and make some sense out of it. And we were, we were reflecting back on deal situations that didn't pan out and those that did. And what were the similarities and the differences. The successful ones and the ones that weren't successful. And I think we concluded that the ones that were successful, knew and understood that they needed some as bail, that they needed help, that they needed measured guidance.

Brett Haugh:

[00:18:26] And I think we just. We just coined the phrase as Baylors out of that, but that, that was, yeah, that was certainly an inspirational

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:18:34] moment. So here's another one I'm gonna want put this in your words. I had lunch with Jim not long after we had done all this work, and he was talking about how different everything was in, in the sales pitches, and he would ask the three questions.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:18:49] Agreed with what he knew was of absolute certainty. They were under such change that they were, had regulatory and legal challenges that are gonna be coming up. He would be talking with 'em. He said, [00:19:00] really the business we're in is the ass bailing business. He said they would snap their finger and point at 'em and say, that's what Id that wrong.

Brett Haugh:

[00:19:06] Any executive that is true to themselves and and open-minded. To receive thought and idea, you know, from a advisor, business partner is, is gonna self-identify. And if that business is contemporary and it's innovative and it's evolving, it's gonna have changes that are occurring. And those changes, a lot of times the complexity of.

Brett Haugh:

[00:19:31] Set of problems or challenges, you know, exceed the capacity of the company and their, their people that manage those aspects and they need an as Baylor. And so it, it's self-identifying. I mean, if you ask 10 people, you know, out on the street they need help in some form or fashion and you know, you ought at least get seven and say, yeah, I need some mass failing.

Brett Haugh:

[00:19:53] Right. And I think anybody can self-identify with that. So it's, it's very powerful and that gets back [00:20:00] to spending your time following your guardrails to talk to people that are ready to have a significant conversation.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:20:08] So once you came up with the new positioning and messaging and started the new trajectory, how hard was that to push that through the organization?

Brett Haugh:

[00:20:20] Well, in our case, it wasn't hard, uh, or it wasn't as difficult because we did not have a strong legacy. We were three guys paddling in a boat with a skiff behind us of a couple of employees, and so it wasn't hard for three of us to make decisions and affect change. I think the consequences would've been different had we delayed doing that work and identifying those guardrails.

Brett Haugh:

[00:20:47] You know, a decade later when we had already developed a culture and a way of doing things, then I think it would've been more difficult for us to produce the change. But really, we were [00:21:00] fledgling, we were smart enough to know that. We were at an inflection point and needed to be able to articulate things better than what we were doing.

Brett Haugh:

[00:21:09] You know, hire Pennebaker to come in and help us with these guardrails, and then use that as a basis for setting the stage in how the organization operates, and then outwardly how we're, how we're positioning ourselves, you know, to prospective

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:21:23] clients. What was the response from your competitors when you came out with the new benefits company for companies in crisis?

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:21:33] What did your competitors do when you came out with that?

Brett Haugh:

[00:21:37] Well, it, it literally scared them to death, and the growth level was so significant, so sudden that it, you know, it changed the balance of our industry in this part of the country. In fact today, you know, 20 something years later, I still have executives from those competitors, you know, grab me at conferences or, you know, at some event that we happen [00:22:00] to run into each other and say, yeah, holy cow.

Brett Haugh:

[00:22:02] I don't, don't think to this day I've ever seen anything come in and disrupt the market more than what you guys did. And, you know, some of them will, you know, we're good enough friends where they'll, they'll truthfully say, yeah, we didn't have our. We didn't, as much as you thought we had our business together, we didn't have it together that well, which gave you guys the upper hand and really kind of the line share of the market.

Brett Haugh:

[00:22:27] You know, I think that that's the biggest confidence builder that you can have when you have a, a qualified competitor, you know, come up and admit something like that to you, you know, 20 years later and, and really, you know, I'm not sure that the market has seen anything like that, you know, since. It's not just in Houston, but it's in, it's across the southwestern part of the United States.

Brett Haugh:

[00:22:50] In fact, I still run into people that are from East coast or West Coast, you know, who are like, oh, no, no, I, I've heard of you guys. I'm not sure [00:23:00] that they have the right firm or not. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna let 'em give it up, but I'll take that and it, it just. Builds the confidence that what we did was, was the right thing at the time.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:23:10] Was there a specific moment when you could see that the culture shift had really taken hold? Where you went to Jim and said, you know, I just saw something here in the company. I like this 'cause this means it's working.

Brett Haugh:

[00:23:25] Yeah. I mean, I, I don't recall like a, a specific moment, but what, what we saw was.

Brett Haugh:

[00:23:32] Unproductive conversation. Stop unproductive emails, stop. And so you, you know, you talk about efficiency, you know, when everybody is on the boat rowing in the same direction, you know, the efficiency level, the nimbleness that we had in the marketplace was. I could look across the room at one of one of our client leaders and I didn't have [00:24:00] to have a 30 minute conversation.

Brett Haugh:

[00:24:02] I could lock eyes with that individual and we were thinking the same thing. I dunno how you describe that or how you measure that other than when everybody's doing stuff in sync, this destructive conversation. It goes out the door. And I used to call those when they did occur, lateral distractions that did nothing but impede my forward progress.

Brett Haugh:

[00:24:25] And they were frequent. And when you looked at your day, you could sanction off two and a half hours of those unproductive lateral dis distractions. People thought that was important for them to talk about, and then this morphis occurs and you all start focusing on what is our market? What is not our market?

Brett Haugh:

[00:24:46] What are behaviors, what are bad behaviors? And the lights turn on and it flips. Did your client retention go up? Absolutely. We only lost clients. Due [00:25:00] to them being acquired or them being merged and, you know, our inability to get in and talk to whoever the new leadership was. But I would say that, you know, as a percentage our, our retention rate was probably minimum 95% because you had people anticipating.

Brett Haugh:

[00:25:22] Striving toward excellence, being proactive, providing measured guidance. What else does a buyer want? The only thing you're gonna lose there is if they get bought or sold, or if it's just some unfair popularity contest. It's, you know, sometimes it is, but yeah, the retention. The retention was very high and you had to have high retention and then growth on top of that to move the

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:25:48] needle.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:25:49] What's the average retention rate of your competitors at that time?

Brett Haugh:

[00:25:53] I, I would say it, it was not as high as 95%, but you know, unfortunately [00:26:00] back then when we did this, the market was. Largely trading based on relationships and we had great relationships, but we needed to put, uh, the measurement, the technical behind it, to shore that up to beat, you know, a strong relationship.

Brett Haugh:

[00:26:17] I'm not gonna kid myself to say that theres was not 70, 80%. I was more concerned about stealing their clients than I was about whether they were effective at keeping 'em.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:26:28] And how successful were you at stealing their clients?

Brett Haugh:

[00:26:32] Well, it was, yeah, we were pretty good. I mean, we got, I think our close ratio was, you know, when we were humming on all cylinders, probably around 75%.

Brett Haugh:

[00:26:42] So 75% of the deals that we went into that were qualified. We would get not bad odds, right? That's betting 700, 7 50, right. If you're talking baseball,

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:26:53] he, before you went into the process, what did you think you were gonna be doing and getting

Brett Haugh:

[00:26:59] [00:27:00] ward? I don't know, to be honest with you. I don't know if we, if we really thought a lot about that.

Brett Haugh:

[00:27:07] I think I can almost visualize whatever the proposal was that you gave us to do this and, and reading through it and setting guardrails and the testament of what this would accomplish. And I thought, well, that all sounds real appealing. And gosh, we could put a stick in our eye, or we could sit out and go through this stuff with Ward, which we would rather do.

Brett Haugh:

[00:27:27] Yours was a lot more compelling. And so I think we liked you personally and professionally. And I think at that time we were, you know, we were willing to invest and, and explore and test ourselves. We knew that we needed to operate differently, that we, we needed to develop a new way of doing things to get us to the next couple of levels.

Brett Haugh:

[00:27:51] We just didn't know what that was.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:27:53] If you saw a company that was in that position of being at an inflection point [00:28:00] and didn't know what you know, what to do, how would you explain to them what was possible from what you went through? You know, that's a really good question.

Brett Haugh:

[00:28:09] I don't know if I would approach it from that perspective.

Brett Haugh:

[00:28:12] I'm trying to convince them to understand and visualize what success from the Guardrail Project produces. I would step back and say, what are the challenges that you're dealing with today? How critical are those challenges? What's on the line for you personally and professionally, and what else do you have that's gonna test you?

Brett Haugh:

[00:28:33] Test the, the current state to get to that next level. I think I would just hit it from that because helping somebody who's in a state of confusion or they knew, they know they need help, really visualize and appreciate what the future state looks like. I think sometimes can be confused as just selling rhetoric.

Brett Haugh:

[00:28:55] And I think it's more about, uh, what, what do you have to lose? What's at [00:29:00] stake here for us? It was three individuals that had committed to EBS that wanted to see it grow and develop, you know, had a personal financial stake in it and didn't wanna walk away from couple of years of trying and, and not being successful.

Brett Haugh:

[00:29:19] And it, so it was everything

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:29:21] to us. So the company was sold. You've been wildly successful. The company was sold, you eventually left and joined. What was a competitor? Correct. What are the challenges you're facing at

Brett Haugh:

[00:29:34] your new firm? You know that, that's an incredible question. When you go from being the top dog to being a leader, but not the top dog, but having a lot of dogs in front of you.

Brett Haugh:

[00:29:49] Some good, some not so good. You, you have to check your yourself at the door because your, your sense of responsibility and accountability toward everything and that [00:30:00] happens in the organization, you know, is huge. When you're in business for yourself, when you're working for a company, you don't have to worry about.

Brett Haugh:

[00:30:07] Having cash flow and receivables in to make the payroll, you don't have to necessarily worry about a lawsuit, uh, on an e and o issue. You don't have to necessarily worry about other aspects of running the business, and it takes a while for you to adjust to say, God, why am I worrying about this? They've cut people in HR and accounting that do this stuff.

Brett Haugh:

[00:30:31] So you really kind of have to ratchet it back because you wanna be, you wanna be supportive of the leadership hierarchy, but at the same time, you're used to saying there's the hill. That's what we're gonna go climb and, and not having to get everybody's buy-in. And when you work for a. A bigger enterprise.

Brett Haugh:

[00:30:50] You're not gonna be the head sled dog, but you're gonna be a still behind the head sled dog and you've gotta check yourself at the door, you know, and say, I've gotta [00:31:00] back off my, my real job here is X and not Y. How

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:31:03] about in the company itself? What are the challenges that a company in that business like you, you addressed the changes that were going on in the market with EBS and.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:31:14] Captured that and, and built on it. Is there an opportunity that you see today in benefits in retirement and the things that you play

Brett Haugh:

[00:31:24] in? I think there's, there's, you know, opportunity everywhere. I think opportunity changes and it evolves with the challenges that are present for employers that are providing, you know, retirement plans, benefit plans, HR services.

Brett Haugh:

[00:31:39] The challenges today are different than the challenges that we had at EBS. The challenges at the firm that I work at today are gonna be completely different next year. So I think the world is spinning at a much faster rate and the challenges are, are, are becoming more significant. But anytime you and I will [00:32:00] agree anytime that there's change.

Brett Haugh:

[00:32:01] There's opportunity and you just have to assess the opportunity and whether or not it's worthy of capital investment and at what degree and do do the math. But yeah, anytime. If we were a stagnant industry with not a lot of change going on, I'd be scared to death. But I can't think of much of anything today in the world that's not changing rapidly.

Brett Haugh:

[00:32:25] So. That just means for entrepreneurially minded people that there are opportunities that are abound.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:32:32] A thought exercise I love to do with, with people is to imagine that if you were to blow up the business today and start over, would it look like it is today? Would you structure it the way it's structured today?

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:32:48] And if not, how would you structure it?

Brett Haugh:

[00:32:50] I think I would take some good things, you know, from from the way it operates today and. Infuse, you know, some other ideas in there [00:33:00] and create something that, that in some aspects will be very similar and other aspects could be quite different. At the end of the day, the problem that's being solved is around a challenge that can be defined.

Brett Haugh:

[00:33:13] It's around. A variety of variables that are occurring and changing that influence, that challenge. It presents risk or it doesn't present risk to to an employer, and it provides some sort of a solution set. So those things I think everybody would agree are constant and not changing. Maybe aspects of the nimbleness of the organization to respond could be, could be improved, or the measurement process could be consolidated and much quicker.

Brett Haugh:

[00:33:46] I guess just more optimization and efficiency in terms of how things done and maybe, maybe the things like AI that's coming, you know, around the corner are, are the avenues that get us from current state to [00:34:00] future state. Leaders, I think have to really keep a pulse and an eye on all of these things and, and determine whether or not something's, you know, worthy of capital investment in pursuit, or whether it's gonna change so frequently that, you know, an early adoption doesn't make sense in some

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:34:19] form or fashion.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:34:20] You mentioned ai. Can you give an example of how AI could come in and disrupt the business?

Brett Haugh:

[00:34:26] Yeah, I mean we're studying that right now and I think from, you know, a knowledge base perspective, having AI as a tool that that can scan quickly across massive data sets to produce some sort of an outcome is obviously a very desired state.

Brett Haugh:

[00:34:44] We maintain. A massive business around data and healthcare transactions and get questioned all the time. You know, what is the frequency of, of this procedure and what does it cost and what's the 25th percentile in the. [00:35:00] 50th and the 70th percentile and, and, uh, and it takes a while to compile the data to be able to know if the results that you produce, you know, are credible.

Brett Haugh:

[00:35:11] I think AI is gonna solve that, and I think it's gonna bring it right to the top. I also believe that it will help. Providing engagement opportunities and, and allow people to, to self-serve and get information quickly. So, you know, the idea of, you know, reading the book for the answer, you know, is gonna be replaced with a knowledge base that's constantly changing on where's the best place to go get my appendix removed from a cost and quality perspective.

Brett Haugh:

[00:35:42] So I think it's really exciting, but I think we have to hold AI accountable to actually produce value. And I enjoy the conversation and the rhetoric about how important it all is, but I'm also very excited to see, you know what the results are, something [00:36:00] better than the chat GPT that I sometimes ask the question and I get the stupidest response.

Brett Haugh:

[00:36:06] Heck, but I know that we're in the infancy of, of the development of all this, so I'm patient, you know, we'll see. I think it makes things a lot more efficient and quicker so that that feeds that nimble value that we've always talked about. Being able to quickly respond, I think AI feeds.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:36:25] Do you see anything, any needs in the marketplace that nobody is addressing that you think, wow, there's some, somebody who's really heads up should look at that.

Brett Haugh:

[00:36:35] This could be confused with some aspects of what's out in the market today, but, but I'm gonna use a phrase navigator. I think that healthcare and healthcare delivery is. So incredibly cumbersome and confusing to people and me included. And, you know, I'm, I'm self-professed expert in healthcare and healthcare [00:37:00] delivery, that it's a struggle for me to watch a family member go through the process and.

Brett Haugh:

[00:37:08] Not understand it and not not having anybody there to explain it to them from the facility or the physician's office that I believe. And you know, and maybe that's ai, right? I don't know, but I, I think there's, there's a lot of people that are discontent with it. Uh, because they don't know, you know, how to navigate through the healthcare system.

Brett Haugh:

[00:37:33] And I think it's more than just an 800 number that you can call. People don't understand in Minnesota what it's like to venture into the Texas Medical Center and stay at MD Anderson all day and wander around that complex and what the parking is like and what to expect and what not to expect. Just like.

Brett Haugh:

[00:37:56] You know, we don't understand, you know, how healthcare is [00:38:00] delivered at a local facility in Minneapolis, St. Paul. And so maybe, maybe in the marketplace there needs to be a personal, a concierge and attache that can be available to help. And I know the hospital system say they have care coordinators, but those people are too busy and they have to treat you like a number.

Brett Haugh:

[00:38:22] They have to think that the 84-year-old cancer survivor knows and understands what to expect when they come into this huge macro facility, and they just don't. And so I think there's, there's inefficiency in all of that. And, and I think it, it's a problem that hasn't been addressed and maybe, maybe there's an opportunity there.

Brett Haugh:

[00:38:44] I don't know whether patients would, would pay for that or not pay for that. I don't know. I haven't thought through it enough. But it'd be

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:38:52] an opportunity perhaps, to have the benefits company have those people on staff.

Brett Haugh:

[00:38:57] Yeah. It could, it very well could be, [00:39:00] could be the Benefit Plus program, right? It could.

Brett Haugh:

[00:39:03] It, it, it could be, yeah. You know, I think that's a problem that, that's not solved, but. Then healthcare as an industry is a conundrum with the, the role of pharmacy benefit managers and the creation of new specialty medications that are 25, 30 times the cost of a traditional brand name drug, CRISPR technology that edit genes and influence the expression of genes.

Brett Haugh:

[00:39:27] New surgical procedures that are in place today. I mean, it's all very, very difficult. It's all very, very expensive and it's also very confusing even to an expert. I have to think through that a little bit more. Well, you know, it's a problem. Anybody say, well, we've got, we're really good at defining the problem and we'll do it till we stop it in the ground, but that doesn't mean we're solved it.

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:39:52] So this is a question that is similar to one I asked earlier. What's a piece of advice that you could offer [00:40:00] leaders in other companies who are facing challenges similar to what you you faced?

Brett Haugh:

[00:40:05] You know, I think that. The number one thing is to have an open mind and to find qualified business experts you can openly have the candid, authentic discussion with about, here's the challenge.

Brett Haugh:

[00:40:19] You're a smart advisor to me. What would you do? How would you handle this? I think just being open minus I think so many leaders today feel like they have the answer and a lot of times they don't. They pull the trigger before they really have the target, uh, identified. Well, I guess that's a style. In retrospect, we could probably go back and figure out how successful or unsuccessful that is, but I think there's always a better way of, of approaching.

Brett Haugh:

[00:40:46] Your circumstance? Well, I mean, ward, we would've never have found you had we not been willing to share our problems with, you know, anybody that said, Hey, tell me what you're challenged with. And maybe we were, maybe we were [00:41:00] immature back then. Maybe we walked around with this, you know, in the tips of our, our brain trying to figure it out.

Brett Haugh:

[00:41:07] I don't know. I do, I do give credit to the fact that it led us to you and it gave us a sense of direction. Confidence and certainty that we felt like given our current state would, would be meaningful in helping us transition to a, a growth stage business. So leaders come in all different shapes and forms and, and uh, I don't know if there's just one answer, you know, for that, but I can pretty much.

Brett Haugh:

[00:41:35] Look at an individual, understand their background, and kind of tell you how they're gonna shoot, whether they're gonna shoot from the hip

Ward Pennebaker:

[00:41:43] or really aim at the target. That's a valuable insight. Brett, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been, uh, most interesting conversation.

Brett Haugh:

[00:41:53] Well, I appreciate your invitation.

Brett Haugh:

[00:41:55] I wish you'd luck on the podcast and, uh, more than anything else we're. [00:42:00] Still very appreciative of all the work and the, the partnership and the time and interest you took in our business. It was, you know, transformative to us and both personally and professionally, and we were always grateful for that.

Brett Haugh:

[00:42:13] Thank you, ward. Thanks.

Matt Pennebaker:

[00:42:15] Thanks for listening to Rethink Change. If you enjoyed